Welcome to a new episode of Mindful at Work. I’m your host, Vanessa Pagan and today we’re talking with Elad Levinson, LSWC  about mindful leadership, conflict resolution and building high reliability organizations.

In this interview with Elad Levinson we learn about:

✅  Elad’s leadership framework: Mindfulness, Ability to Focus, and Cultivating Goodwill
✅  Why the term Individual Contributor is a joke
✅  Ways to address conflict within teams
✅  Manager response tools beyond freeze, fight or flight
✅ How we can create high reliability organizations no matter what uncertainty we face

Episode Notes

Daniel Goldman, Focus
Joseph Grenny co-author of Crucial Conversations
“I crave certainty” The Crown, Netflix
Karl Weick and high reliability organizations (HRO)
Navy Officer HRO Transformation
Research on Preventable Errors in Hospitals with Nurses and Physicians
Atul Guwande The Checklist Manifesto
Petaluma Health Center
Dan Goleman, HBR  “A leaders role is to manage the focus of the organization”
Simon Sinek’s Start with Why Ted Talk
Elad’s Course Thriving On Change
📧 Email Elad [dot] Levinson [at] gmail [dot] com
📞 Call Elad 707-779-9190

The question is, what are we rewarding? – Elad Levinson

Subscribe and Listen to the Mindful @ Work Podcast
Apple Podcast | Google Play Music | Pocket Casts | Stitcher | More

Episode Transcript

Mindful Leadership and Conflict Resolution with Elad Levinson

Vanessa Pagan: Today we have on our Mindful @ Work podcast a special guests Elad Levinson who is an expert at applying neuroscience and cognitive sciences to leadership Effectiveness and has more than 40 years experience in leadership roles in various organizations. He’s held several management positions at Agilent Technologies, iCANN and Stanford University. Elad’s currently a senior adviser to many C-level leaders on strategy and incorporating the tools and skills of his multimedia program Thriving On Change. I had the chance to meet Elad during his session at Talent Next conference building a mindful workplace in turbulent times. Elad, welcome to the  show.

Elad Levinson: Thank you so much Vanessa.I’m glad to be here.

Vanessa Pagan: Could you tell us a little about how you define mindfulness at work?

Elad Levinson: I mean, it’s it the question of what is mindfulness. One that I think has been deeply a misunderstood because there’s so many different definitions floating around. I think a really simple way of thinking about mindfulness is that it’s an innate state that all human beings have.

And that it’s typified by a heightened sense of awareness of yourself in the moment. So an example would be you’re sitting in your talking with a colleague colleague says something about another colleague it triggers something inside of you like a danger signal you can feel the hair on your neck and you notice it.

That moment of noticing is mindfulness and one of the tools in mindfulness, which is extremely valuable within the workplace is being able to recognize when you’re having a reaction and then being able to regulate the reaction so instead of just kind of jumping in with both feet and saying well, wait a minute.

I don’t really see that person that way or have you considered. Instead what you do is you just take a moment and kind of inquire with a calm mind. Gee, what is the best thing for me to do right now? Maybe the best thing for me to do is just be silent.

Vanessa Pagan: That’s definitely a way to no longer be reactive but to be purposeful in how we behave .

Elad Levinson: Exactly

Vanessa Pagan: How can that translate into team or management skills in the workplace?

Elad Levinson: Well you know one thing that you might think about is that mindfulness has relevance and efficacy at every level of the organization. There are many organizations that have incorporated mindfulness as a part of kind of brown bag lunches for their Wellness programs, and I think that’s an excellent way. You know it’s targeted at the individual. It gives the individual some skills, but I think where the most return-on-investment is for companies is when you begin to bring mindfulness into teams, and you hold teams accountable for incorporating skills of mindfulness in their daily work.

And then if you bump it up one level you could say that mindfulness is a brilliant change management intervention so at the level of team one of the ways that you might think about this is that people are coming together usually virtually and their attention is split amongst all of the emails that they have in their inbox and the conversation is taking place on the phone and the fact that they’ve got a WebEx coming up in about five minutes plus they have a report for their boss that really need to send them.

And that kind of division of attention makes it very difficult to have really meaningful meetings online or in person because people do the same kinds of things in person they tend to be distracted by their own interior concerns, wants and needs. And so just a simple intervention of teaching people that when they get on the phone or there in a WebEx that they only concentrate on one thing.

What is happening right now and that if you add to that some good meeting management tools like making sure that you have a robust agenda that has very clear desired outcomes now you’re beginning to really cook and at the level of organization. My experience is that most human beings are ill-prepared for dealing with the level and complexity breadth and scope of change that they’re experiencing within their companies and so upgrading their skills you might think of it as really the type of intervention that I’m interested in is increasing or accelerating evolution and mindfulness is one of three skill sets that really help people evolve towards being able to cope with and build capacity for the stressors that they’re experiencing.

Vanessa Pagan: That really brings, I mean I want to know what are the other two factors?

Elad Levinson: Well. This is an interesting discovery for me, so I’ve been practicing mindfulness in some form since I was 23 and so like 30-40 years, and it’s always been something that’s been a personal interest to me because I learned that there were many ways that I could apply mindfulness that were personally satisfying, and then also really helped me change habits and as I started incorporating and bringing mindfulness into my organizational consulting, I discovered two things.

One is that awareness is the skill of being able to be aware moment by moment. And which is extremely useful because it allows you to kind of parse what’s happening in the moment in real time and be able to have a little bit of objectivity, but awareness is not enough because the biggest obstacle that I see foremost leaders and employees is that they don’t really know how to manage their attention.

Daniel Goleman wrote a brilliant book called Focus and in his book and really in the way that I’ve incorporated his book. I assume that human beings need help with being able to first of all direct their attention to something that’s wholesome and meaningful and effective and then secondly be able to lift their attention off of that and place it somewhere else so that they don’t have that lag time of 15 to 20 minutes where their attention is still kind of split or fragmented. And then third to be able to have a level of focus or awareness on the greater context that you’re in because none of us exist within organizations as the term individual contributor is a joke you know where everything that we do is interdependent with everybody else.

So awareness and then managing attention, which is also sometimes called Focus or concentration and a part of focus and concentration is learning how to relax. Learning how to let go when it’s no longer appropriate or necessary to be able to have that kind of hard sharp delineated focus, then it’s really an important skill to know how to let muscular. attention go how to let the kind of mental stresses relax, and then the third is really as a result of my interaction with Joseph Grenny. who’s one of the founders of Crucial Conversations. I was working at Agilent as senior director of Learning and Development, and I observed that we had a lot of very brilliant scientists and engineers who were terrific in the lab. They were terrific in their kind of respective sciences, but they couldn’t really come together as a team very skillfully because they were aversive to conflict and the way that they tended to deal with conflict was to either kind of override what other people would say and kind of talk them down are they would just clam up and stop talking completely.

So I went looking for a program, for our engineers and our scientists, and I stumbled across Crucial Conversations. Went to the course became certified brought it into Agilent. We ended up having more than 1,500 employees go through the program.

You know people who had said you know under no circumstances would I ever have that conversation with that person now they were beginning to have a toolset that allowed them to be able to initiate, maintain and conclude a conversation that had importance. That had emotional content to it generally negative and third it was something that they had a difference of opinion about.

And so I began to explore the question like how does conflict resolution fit into mindfulness and focus because my experience as a leader is that if you want to get anything done you have to build goodwill.

You have to face and connect with people around their agendas and to find ways to incorporate your agenda in theirs, but you’re not going to create goodwill if you don’t have a true dialogue with the people that you work with and most human beings have a dialogue that’s either, this is the words of Crucial Conversations, that you tend to go into silence or violence.

And what they mean by that is silence would be that you try to manipulate the situation by going silent and kind of holding out for what you want, or you go to violence which is more trying to use, well it would be great if you use persuasion and logic, but instead usually what you end up doing is aggressively going after your point of view without really listening to the other person’s concerns or objections or how that affects them.

Vanessa Pagan: Wow, so when someone goes into either silence or violence, they’re really creating a lot of tension within the team or whatever it is the cross functional organization is happening.

Elad Levinson: Yes.

Vanessa Pagan: What are ways that a manager can use mindfulness in that kind of situation?

Elad Levinson: Well I mean first of all I think that this question of what’s the integration between mindfulness and conflict resolution you know it, bears a lot of scrutiny because human beings are wired, this is our neurobiology, to be aversive to situations where there’s a potential for either verbal or otherwise kinds of aggression

And so the first thing that mindfulness does is it allows us to recognize, yeah I’m really feeling like I have to have this conversation with so and so. I don’t really want to have it because every time I’ve ever had a conversation with them in the past they’ve either disregarded what I had to say or they spoke over me. Hasn’t been a good experience, and so there’s a recognition of the aversion. That’s that’s a mindful state.

And then once you have kind of registered like okay, I get it. I’m aversive here then the next thing that mindfulness can do to help you is it can kind of name the concern that you’re feeling. Like oh with inquiry what I realize is that my past experience with this person is X and I’m assuming that it’s going to be the same way the next time that we have a conversation.

That’s the mindfulness keys and then the bridge the kind of conflict resolution is very very skillfully organized in crucial conversations, and I’m going to quote for a moment something that Joseph said in an interview with me, so Joseph is one of the four founders of Vital Smarts and they are social psychologists or their writers, and I said to Joseph so tell me is mindfulness and integral part of crucial conversations, and he laughed and he said, “Without mindfulness there are no crucial conversations.”  And I said, okay good said well from if you look at the methodology of how we construct a crucial conversation, it always begins with self-awareness.

You first have to know what you’re thinking and feeling you have to know what you’re after and you also have to know how to regulate fonts of the situation, otherwise you’re going to tend to go into socks or violence or another way of putting it as flight or freeze, and then he expanded on that and he said every step of the way. In the six key methodology you’re always bringing mindfulness because mindfulness has a natural outgrowth which is. I want this to work out not just for me. It’s not self-centered and selfish. It’s that. I also want you and I to work together in such a way that when this resolution occurs that it’s something you can live with an Implement that I can live with an Implement and that it’s going to make a better solution than if we just kind of bully each other or we just went ahead and did whatever we felt like doing.

Vanessa Pagan: Right because now you’re focused on how can you align. Everyone’s different interest and priorities right? I wanted to ask how can this idea of crucial conversations and conflict resolution and aligning different people’s agendas how can that affect an organization wow?

Elad Levinson: So I’m going to I’m going to say a few things that I know are somewhat provocative and again they are based on you know 40 plus years of direct experience. Not just as senior leader, but also in the trenches as individual contributor.

My experience is that most organizations manage conflict very badly. And the atmosphere the culture tends to regulate conflict in a couple of different ways

One, is that the land mines that are all over the organization that are just waiting to kind of blow up are the crucial conversations.

You know and I can give you an example we, I was consulting for a software company, and they had a CTO who is the founder. Whose terrific brilliant genius created a piece of software that ended up being like a multi multi multi-million-dollar tool, but he said when I interviewed him. He said I don’t like managing, I really don’t like taking care of other people or babysitting them and so he was also the VP of engineering. So the resolution in that case that everybody had been avoiding was to talk to the senior team the CEO and everybody else knew that he did not welcome the role of being VP of engineering, but they kept on kind of ignoring that partly because oh jeez it’s going to cost us a lot if we’re going to hire a VP of engineering at this phase in our development and partly because they didn’t want to upset him. They didn’t want him to kind of pick up his marbles and leave.

In the conversation with him, I found that he was quite amenable to talking openly and authentically about the fact that he did not want to manage and that he just would like to be left alone to create and invest.

That’s an example of where they could have spent another year trying to make do with what they had. Instead they moved him over to the CTO role and they hired a VP of engineering, okay, so just one example.

I think that if you look at organizations through the lens of, where are the conversations that need to happen that are not happening and that could be inter-level between you know a director and above or it could be on a team or it could be me and my direct report. It doesn’t really matter because the dynamics are all the same. There’s something that needs to be said.

There’s a lot of emotion tied up in that there’s a difference of opinion, and oh by the way we both consider it very important are all of us instead of important when you begin to integrate mindfulness at the individual level.

And you help people learn how to self-regulate. You help them learn how to be self-aware and then regulate the emotional reactions that they’re having to the person or the situation and then you add to that a very comprehensive step-by-step methodology for taking the concerns of the issues of the problem and facing them directly, but facing them in such a way that it’s going to be to an effective resolution you begin to build a culture where people trust that it’s okay to have differences of opinion and that those differences of opinion are welcomed and that there is a way for individuals and teams to come to a resolution that will be effective.

Vanessa Pagan: That’s critical. One of the things that I heard you say in the problem that face between the CTO and the the idea that once you’ve reached a level of success your role may have to change within an organization so the joy of creating and innovating software is a different skill set and talent than managing engineers.

Which that discussion of it’s time for this part of the organization to have attention and maybe the person who got us there isn’t the person he’ll take us to the next place. That’s one of the very hard conversations. And the idea of being honest and open about things that may not always be positive that takes a lot of initiative and that requires a culture to value honesty in times when we’re uncertain of the outcome.

Elad Levinson: Yes, yes, I mean I think that’s really insightful Vanessa and I was watching as as many many people are the Netflix series called The Crown, and there’s this segment in the Crown where the queen becomes quite, I don’t know enamored is not right word because that would suggest a romantic involvement, but more just very drawn to Billy Graham the Evangelistic, the Crusader. And when the two of them sit down Billy says to her, you here you are you’re the head of the Anglican Church. Why are you interested in what I have to say and she said ‘I crave certainty.’ I’m a kind of a person who wants to believe that there are some things that are just black and white.

And I what she was articulating was one of the fundamental human stressors that have become much more difficult to even approach and that is that we’re living in an age where the rule of thumb the norm is volatility. Ambiguity meaning no, not certainty you know and high degree of uncertainty about the future or about my role or about what we’re doing or about what the product is that we’re going to and then finally the kind of level of having to deal with the fact that all traces that we make are insufficient in firms of being able to feel confident or certain that exactly it’s exactly the right one and so the environment that we’re working in is one in which the dynamics of change are the primary motivator of whether or not people thrive or are barely surviving.

And so my premise, this is what I spoke about it the association for talent development organizations, need to commit to making change as the subject one of their central training and learning areas.

So you’re a new employee and you’re being inculcated into the culture of this organization you from the very beginning. You need to be given tools for rapid ongoing change process, and you’re not going to have a level of confidence or certainty that tomorrow might not be different or probably will be different than today,.

And then you if you kind of think of change as the centerpiece then you start weaving in the social psychology aspect of change like how does change affect a group of people and how can a group of people maximize their ability as team to able to work with change. Probably the best material on this is from Karl Weick at the University of Michigan in his work on high reliability organizations.

His work is groundbreaking the many many organizations have incorporated. Healthcare is beginning to consider it to be a core developmental process for organizations that want to reduce physician error or provider error. What Wieck says is you have to make the entire organization mindful. It has to become a resident skill so that if somebody else somebody is not being mindful. They’re acting in a way that is not within the kind of alignment that we have about how we do things then somebody needs to learn how to confront that because they see what the other person is not seeing.

Vanessa Pagan: That’s interesting that you talked about the idea of high reliability because I consider high reliability to be deliverables and the method that you get there may be in question the team the timing may be in question and fluctuate, but the end result is what would be the goal to be  concrete. What could a leader or a team manager do to have mindfulness in that process to becoming highly reliable in the face of change and uncertainty?

Elad Levinson: Well first of all the the basis of the research that’s been done on this is in situations whEre the errors lead to fatalities. So this is air traffic controllers have gone through HRO training, Health Care Providers, SWAT teams, firefighters these are and also the military has used that excessively. There’s a terrific article by an admiral in the Navy who talks about how they incorporated high-reliability organizational methodology and really improved the quality of their operational accuracy.

Part of the question is. what are you rewarding, right?

I mean if what you’re rewarding is zero defects or zero errors, and if you’re rewarding the individuals to take to have a conversation when the norm of mindfulness is being broken, and if you make it a kind of cultural imperative that everybody within the team or within the organization is committed to that zero defects or zero errors, then it becomes a part of the conversational process people begin to talk about what they are learning or what they’re doing that’s encouraging them to be more aware in situations. Where being mindless could lead to a fatality.

Vanessa Pagan: I could see how that would be especially in those high-risk situations with there’s a fire or a airplane landing those are things that have dramatic repercussions immediately in terms of safety and health.

Elad Levinson: Yeah, I mean that’s true, but here’s another example the if you go on the vital smarts website. They have a white paper that they did in conjunction with the operating room nurses, and they I think they interviewed like 1500 nurses around the country and they ask them the question first of all how many fatalities within the hospital are caused by provider error, and that could have been preventable and then secondly so what  they heard was that there were a significant percentage of deaths that occurred because nurses were unwilling to confront or call physicians and ask them to change orders or ask them to do something because of the way that the physician would respond to those requests.

And so when they began to get trained and crucial conversations one of the things they saw was a decrease in the response rate of physicians basically blowing off the nurse or the you know whoever it was who would be making a request of them that they either didn’t want to comply with or they just were either too lazy, or they had too much else that they thought was more important. You know in a situation like that the way that the culture begins to be built is around something that is meaningful to the organization. Doesn’t have to be a dramatic organizational goal. You could have an organizational goal to reduce de zero defects the or bugs in software. And that becomes the focus of your high-reliability organizational methodology, and so what begins to happen is that people within a software development process begin to talk to each other much more in the way, that’s articulated and agile methodology where people really take each other to task and they talk about the things that are difficult to talk about because the goal in a natural meeting is to expedite the software development moving forward while same time not sacrificing quality.

Vanessa Pagan: That’s a great perspective. The stories that you are sharing with me reminds me of Atul Gawande’s book The Checklist, Manifesto. He also did research to find that when a nurse is uncomfortable saying something to physician or surgeon errors are more likely to be made even if there noticed  so you have the you have the awareness of something that happening, but because there is thats that conflict like we were speaking about earlier. It doesn’t get brought to light in an accepting way. And that is a cultural change that has to start with the leadership and the top of organization to have that become a value and a principle of how to do things to move forward.

Elad Levinson: Well, I have a very good example of a very close friend of mine is married to someone who has been working for JCR  so that’s the Joint Commission Review, so she goes in and she does pre audits of Hospitals and Clinics getting them ready for joint commission auditing process that that’s a you know the Joint Commission is a if you fail you lose accreditation.

So this is not something that you can blow off or you can postpone. Its crucial to the well-being of the organization and she became interested in HRO on her own. I didn’t introduce the two or something she had learned about and so she began to incorporate some of the teaching in the methodology of high reliability organizations what she found out was that it was very rare for senior leadership teams to be willing to take on the training.

And the culture change that was required to be able to maximize the kind of error free environments that they were required for at least the reduction in errors that are required by an audit you have this very interesting characteristic about human nature, which is that we resist change. Even though change is the norm, right. I think that anytime that you want to teach people or you want to encourage a culture change you really have to think about how long it takes realistically for an organization to align behind something as complex and deep as crucial conversations ,mindfulness, awareness, HRO.

I found in my organizational interventions where I’ve been the leader of a change management initiative that you really have to commit to three years. Have to say okay look for three years we are going to build a parallel organizational structure that slowly begins to move us, as an organization, in the directions that we say we want to go and along the way we’re going to intervene at the level of compensation, we’re going to intervene at the level of Performance Management. We’re going to intervene at the level of development of people every aspect of the organization really has to be examined for how being either is misaligned or not aligned or could be aligned or needs to be aligned with the initiative. And that’s a very, in a world where short-term thinking and instant gratification are so much a part of our cultural heritage that we have at this time, it’s rare to find a senior leader or senior leadership team that’s really committed to that.

Now I happen to be on the board of an organization called Petaluma Health Center, which serves the poorest of the poor. This is an organization that was started back when Lyndon Johnson brought in the war on poverty. It’s the only thing besides Head Start that has survived all of the multiple budget cuts. One out of 14 people go to federally qualified Health Care Centers. They’re kind of the last resort where you can get healthcare. The one that I’m a board member, the CEO and her team are deeply committed to being a high reliability organization, and it’s remarkable to watch how an organization that has as much stress as any single organization anywhere because of the regulatory constant new regulations from ERISA or funding sources that are endangered I mean, it’s a constant battle with very very difficult stressors, and then add to that Sonoma having this these massive fires. Where one of the health centers that had been serving 10,000 people a month burned down.

I’ve watched them now for four years, and they are an example of how it could be done right. It’s remarkable to watch that everything that they do is really from the perspective that we can continuously improve the quality of our providers our operations, our facilities, and they go at it.

They just go at and everything is evidence-based. Everything is data dashboards. They have a read on every area of the organization is transparent. Now to me, it’s wonderful to see in practice that these kind of lofty principles of mindfulness and dealing with things difficult that directly cannot only be implemented, but they can be implemented in a way that patients regard the organization as being superior stellar a place they they really like to go to for health care and that providers flock to work there in an area where it’s very difficult to recruit physician.

Vanessa Pagan: That is a wonderful story. Thank you for sharing so much about what the organization is like. It brings to point something that when we talk about we’re in a short-term driven culture. So many things are driven by the next quarterly report or the next release date, but I think the compliment to that to thinking long term is when you have a clear mission that you are striving towards in that mission can become timeless. And when you have something that’s timeless, it’s easier to put in perspective the kind of commitments to make as an organization and to do the step-by-step granular building of something that can change how a culture is built.

Elad Levinson: Yeah, well, you’re really putting your finger of course on one of the most important characteristics of organizations that human beings gravitate towards and report that they’re happy to work out and those are the ones that have found a way to take what it is that the organization does whether it’s a service or a product or both and really inject meaning into it you know meaning being delight and satisfaction of customers or meaning being that we work in harmony with vendors and suppliers and the entire community and their examples of organizations that you’re pointing to and pretty much every sector in the world it isn’t really just those that are very obvious like health care where you can say wow yeah that mission is something. I can really get behind.

Vanessa Pagan: Right. That could happen anywhere anywhere any kind of mission it can affect industries that don’t even exist yet in terms of can we reach people and serve to make something a better a better experience a better human being a better mindset and or better environment. There’s always something that can be aligned with at a higher level to say okay the commitments that I’m making are striving towards something, and I think that’s the role of a leader or a manager of a team is to shine the light of where that is because when you have that in everyone can see it. It’s easier for people to get into the same direction and move toward it.

Elad Levinson: Yes. Yes, I just think of the Harvard Business review article that Dan Goldman received the very prestigious recognition for being like the best leadership article of 2016 or 2015 where he talks about that a Leader’s role is to manage the focus of the organization.

And I think that you know I’m thinking about leaders that I’ve worked with and then myself whenever I’ve gone into a situation where I’m I’m rebuilding a team or I’m taking a team and and and developing it the first thing I do is always to look at like why are we doing? What we’re doing how does this benefit people much in a much broader context than just simply that we’re pushing this paper through bureaucracy because it serves something somewhere and that’s somewhere generally are people right. They’re the ones who are being served, and if you can really remind yourself that you have this connection to the outside world and that you’re this isn’t just your own little cocoon that you’re in but that the work that you do actually has meaning enlarger way then you’ve got the beginning of an alignment process that you can begin to bring in these evolutionary tools like mindfulness and conflict resolution.

Vanessa Pagan: That’s wonderful. It reminds me of Simon Sinek’s Ted Talk and book Start with Why. When you’re aligned to the reason behind things. It’s easier to get the direction and the momentum to move toward it.

Elad this has been a insightful and a inspiring time to spend with you today. Thank you. Could you tell us a little bit about your course that you briefly mentioned when you did the interview with Joseph Grenny. your course called Thriving on Change

Elad Levinson: Sure Thriving on Change is a video-based program that somebody can download with the key, and it goes into each of the three areas that I articulated awareness attention and conflict resolution actually it’s not the way that I named it in the the course the third area is called cultivating goodwill because I wanted to articulate what it is that is the end result of good conflict resolution and you could say oh, yeah, well, we’ll have increased results and things will be but actually what happens when there’s a really good resolution to a conflict is that you build relationship. You build goodwill between people so each of the three areas are first of all. There’s a kind of brief lectures on what it is, how to see it in the organization, but mostly the program is really aimed at building tools and skills. If you were to open the box, or if you thought about it as like if you were a fisher person, and you love to fish you’d open it up and you see all these flies and things or if you sew you’d open it up you can see all these materials that use for sewing. The course is just rich with tools and skill-building in the three areas. So it really goes beyond the point of a lecture or a cognitive understanding it goes right to the heart of what did I have to learn as a leader to be able to lead an organization people to turn organizations around to be a change management effective coach and consultant, and how is it for the person inside the organization to learn this and then apply it, so it’s very very practical.

The starting point for me in any interest that people have in knowing more about me or knowing more about my consulting or coaching or about the program thriving and change is my preference that they either call me, or write me. I’m very very personable, and I really prefer an initial contact not to be a cold one where somebody just sends in an inquiry, but rather take the risk and give me a call and let’s talk. So if they want to call my phone number is 707 seven seven nine nine one nine oh. If they want to write. It’s elad  dot levinson @ gmail.com and I promise that I’ll respond very quickly to phone calls or to emails.

Vanessa Pagan: That’s wonderful. Getting to spend time with you and the conversations that we have had I’ve had a positive effect on my life, and how I lead the work that I’m doing so I’m really looking forward to people being able to be comfortable to reach out to you to create a personal connection this has been great. Thank you so much.

Elad Levinson: Okay. Bye bye.

Categories: Podcast

Leave a Reply

Your email address will not be published. Required fields are marked *